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<head><meta charset="utf-8"><title>steering meeting 2018-12-14 · t-compiler · Zulip Chat Archive</title></head>
<h2>Stream: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/index.html">t-compiler</a></h2>
<h3>Topic: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html">steering meeting 2018-12-14</a></h3>

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<a name="151779745"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151779745" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151779745">(Dec 14 2018 at 14:41)</a>:</h4>
<p>Reminder <span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="492">@T-compiler</span> (cc <span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="491">@WG-compiler-nll</span>, <span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="692">@WG-compiler-traits</span>):</p>
<p>We're having our Compiler Steering Meeting in ~20 minutes (10:00 UTC-05:00). I had intended to post a list of possible topics a few days back but this week ran away from me. </p>
<p>Update on last week's topics: <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="124287">@mw</span> and I have been making some efforts to profile compiler etc, but ran into some challenges. I think it might make sense to find a few folks really interested in pursuing that. Preliminary measurements suggests that (a) parallel compilation is a win, (b) trait solving is a considerable source of time (~20-30%) for many benchmarks and involves solving the same tasks over and over (I would expect an ~95% hit rate for chalk-style caches). Future work that I would like to see is improving <code>-Zself-profile</code> and estimating impact of polymorphization (I'm working on that, hoping to collaborate with <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116107">@davidtwco</span> more on it today), as well as possibly finding ways to get better measurements with perf (backtraces are a persistent challenge).</p>
<p>For agenda, I was thinking we might take a slight turn from the technical and consider some of the following: please feel free to comment on which you think would be best.</p>
<p>1. Triage and other meetings: how should we structure? Can we improve the current setup? What are its flaws, strengths?<br>
2. Mentoring and bus factor: How can we help move people from "working group participant" into "full-fledged team member"? How can we reduce the "bus factor" for critical modules like type-checker, type resolver, etc?</p>



<a name="151779756"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151779756" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151779756">(Dec 14 2018 at 14:41)</a>:</h4>
<p>(Also feel free to suggest other potential agenda items)</p>



<a name="151779881"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151779881" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> davidtwco <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151779881">(Dec 14 2018 at 14:43)</a>:</h4>
<p>a suggestion: create a <code>T-compiler-meeting</code> group here on Zulip with <code>T-compiler</code> and those interested in attending the meeting each week  - it could be confusing if someone pings <code>T-compiler</code> for a question about something and all the non-<code>T-compiler</code> but meeting attendees are also pinged.</p>



<a name="151779973"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151779973" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> davidtwco <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151779973">(Dec 14 2018 at 14:44)</a>:</h4>
<p>(not so much a suggestion for discussion at the meeting, just in general)</p>



<a name="151780226"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151780226" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151780226">(Dec 14 2018 at 14:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>makes sense. I always want to have "opt-in" aliases for things like meetings.</p>



<a name="151780234"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151780234" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151780234">(Dec 14 2018 at 14:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>I don't think we can actually make it opt-in, but having aliases for meetings makes it easy to add folks</p>



<a name="151780295"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151780295" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151780295">(Dec 14 2018 at 14:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>(by opt-in, I mean something you can easily add yourself to)</p>



<a name="151780959"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151780959" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> davidtwco <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151780959">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>(apparently anyone can edit those groups?)</p>



<a name="151780988"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151780988" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Wesley Wiser <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151780988">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>Hello <span class="emoji emoji-1f44b" title="wave">:wave:</span></p>



<a name="151780991"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151780991" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> qmx <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151780991">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>howdy!</p>



<a name="151781050"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781050" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Zoxc <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781050">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>I want to discuss <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/pull/56732" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/pull/56732">https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/pull/56732</a>. I think that path could lead to querifying the earlier parts of compiler which we could do pretty soon if we keep incremental compilation on the HIR stage. Then we could do stuff like parallel parsing.</p>



<a name="151781070"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781070" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Santiago Pastorino <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781070">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>hello!!</p>



<a name="151781097"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781097" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781097">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:03)</a>:</h4>
<p>Hi all!</p>



<a name="151781111"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781111" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781111">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:03)</a>:</h4>
<p>cc <span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="492">@T-compiler</span> starting now</p>



<a name="151781117"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781117" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Zoxc <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781117">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:03)</a>:</h4>
<p>I also wondered why AST and HIR aren't allocated on an arena? We'd have to move away from folding by ownership for AST, but moving HIR to an arena seems easier.</p>



<a name="151781179"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781179" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Ariel Ben-Yehuda <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781179">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:04)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>, (b) trait solving is a considerable source of time (~20-30%) for many benchmarks and involves solving the same tasks over and over (I would expect an ~95% hit rate for chalk-style caches). </p>
</blockquote>
<p>I remember the problem used to be confirmation being slow</p>



<a name="151781186"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781186" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nagisa <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781186">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:04)</a>:</h4>
<p>/me shows up and is very happy about finally getting powerpc64le work (damn you <code>cfg(target_arch="powerpc64le")</code> vs <code>cfg(target_arch="powerpc64", target_endian="little")</code>...)</p>



<a name="151781187"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781187" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Ariel Ben-Yehuda <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781187">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:04)</a>:</h4>
<p>but a better caching strategy would not have the "confirmation problem" where you have to confirm all the nested obligations</p>



<a name="151781204"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781204" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781204">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:05)</a>:</h4>
<p>Maybe we can first settle the agenda, then? I proposed a few non-technical topics, and <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116466">@Zoxc</span> has been bringing up more technical possibilities. I'd be potentially open to either one, I think, though I feel like I might like to have a bit of prep on the technical topics (though that's true for any topic).</p>
<p>I'll post a few items as individual comments and people can use emojis, perhaps?</p>



<a name="151781208"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781208" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781208">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:05)</a>:</h4>
<ul>
<li>Triage and other meetings: how should we structure? Can we improve the current setup? What are its flaws, strengths?</li>
</ul>



<a name="151781212"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781212" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781212">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:05)</a>:</h4>
<ul>
<li>Mentoring and bus factor: How can we help move people from "working group participant" into "full-fledged team member"? How can we reduce the "bus factor" for critical modules like type-checker, type resolver, etc?</li>
</ul>



<a name="151781233"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781233" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781233">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:05)</a>:</h4>
<ul>
<li>[WIP] Make the rustc driver and interface demand driven <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/56732" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/56732">#56732</a> -- what we've been calling "end-to-end queries" elsewhere. How will we do it?</li>
</ul>



<a name="151781279"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781279" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781279">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:06)</a>:</h4>
<ul>
<li>why AST and HIR aren't allocated on an arena? We'd have to move away from folding by ownership for AST, but moving HIR to an arena seems easier.</li>
</ul>



<a name="151781323"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781323" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781323">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:07)</a>:</h4>
<p>/me waits a minute or two</p>



<a name="151781384"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781384" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781384">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:08)</a>:</h4>
<p>(ah, I see <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116083">@pnkfelix</span> told me he'd be unable to attend -- <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="124287">@mw</span>, <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="119009">@eddyb</span> are you around?)</p>



<a name="151781387"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781387" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> mw <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781387">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:08)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm here</p>



<a name="151781389"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781389" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781389">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:08)</a>:</h4>
<p>particularly for technical topics, I think we kind of need them around =)</p>



<a name="151781407"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781407" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781407">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:08)</a>:</h4>
<p>or at least for end-to-end queries :)</p>



<a name="151781417"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781417" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> mw <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781417">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:08)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think the end-to-end query discussion would profit from being async (on irlo, for example)</p>



<a name="151781427"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781427" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781427">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:09)</a>:</h4>
<p>potentially, yes</p>



<a name="151781447"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781447" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781447">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:09)</a>:</h4>
<p>ok, well, why don't we start out talking a bit about mentoring + bus factors -- maybe we'll go for 30 minutes to start, and then revisit what to discuss in remaining time?</p>



<a name="151781512"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781512" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781512">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>This may tie in with meeting structure too, I don't know</p>



<a name="151781524"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781524" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781524">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>I guess I can start with the observation that there are a number of parts of the compiler that are not broadly understood -- I'm thinking of name resolution as the most urgent</p>



<a name="151781541"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781541" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> mw <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781541">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>(though I'm not opposed to discussing end-to-end queries now too)</p>



<a name="151781569"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781569" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781569">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:11)</a>:</h4>
<p>I have been wondering if it makes sense to try and get organized about improving the situation</p>



<a name="151781649"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781649" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781649">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:12)</a>:</h4>
<p>One thought I had was to try and document the parts of the compiler and have people kind of sign up for the parts that they think they are an "expert" in -- this isn't to impart ownership per se, but just to document the lay of the land. Then we might imagine trying to take active steps to increase the number of experts -- either by helping new people work in an area, or perhaps by trying to write docs (and through that learn the code)? Not sure.</p>



<a name="151781663"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781663" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781663">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:12)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>(though I'm not opposed to discussing end-to-end queries now too)</p>
</blockquote>
<p>(I'd be game to try and kick off a bit of that later on)</p>



<a name="151781712"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781712" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781712">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:13)</a>:</h4>
<p>I guess i'm partly curious to hear what other people think might be effective. Do we agree it's a problem? How actively do we want to try and resolve it?</p>



<a name="151781719"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781719" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> qmx <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781719">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:13)</a>:</h4>
<p>at least on my experience, the docs are needed but actually fielding issues and working on that part of the codebase is what helped me to learn</p>



<a name="151781732"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781732" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> oli <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781732">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:13)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think some way for ppl to get an answer to the question "I want to edit code X, who do I talk to" would be a good thing</p>



<a name="151781733"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781733" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781733">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:13)</a>:</h4>
<p>yes, that makes sense</p>



<a name="151781736"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781736" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Zoxc <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781736">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:13)</a>:</h4>
<p>Name resolution has certainly scared me off</p>



<a name="151781737"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781737" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> davidtwco <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781737">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:13)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yeah, I've found working on issues to be the most effective way to get familiar.</p>



<a name="151781740"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781740" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781740">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:14)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>I think some way for ppl to get an answer to the question "I want to edit code X, who do I talk to" would be a good thing</p>
</blockquote>
<p>one concern I had was how to keep it up to date</p>



<a name="151781777"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781777" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> qmx <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781777">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:14)</a>:</h4>
<p>kinda like a compiler map?</p>



<a name="151781783"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781783" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> mw <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781783">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:14)</a>:</h4>
<p>I do think that our current bus factor is a problem</p>



<a name="151781794"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781794" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781794">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:14)</a>:</h4>
<p>but the idea of "who do I talk to" was definitely on my mind too</p>



<a name="151781803"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781803" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> QuietMisdreavus <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781803">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:14)</a>:</h4>
<p>a fun project for someone to try would be to slap a <code>#[warn(missing_docs)]</code> on a module and walk through it to quantify how much code would need to be read through</p>



<a name="151781807"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781807" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781807">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:14)</a>:</h4>
<p>interesting</p>



<a name="151781814"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781814" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> davidtwco <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781814">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:14)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>I think some way for ppl to get an answer to the question "I want to edit code X, who do I talk to" would be a good thing</p>
</blockquote>
<p>This would be super valuable. It's still hard to gauge whether I'd be able to tackle an issue in a reasonable timeframe outside of areas where I have some familiarity.</p>



<a name="151781815"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781815" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Santiago Pastorino <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781815">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:14)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>I think some way for ppl to get an answer to the question "I want to edit code X, who do I talk to" would be a good thing</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I think this is also an easy thing to do and easily maintainable too</p>



<a name="151781835"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781835" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781835">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:15)</a>:</h4>
<p>I see some connections here to both the Rust Reference and the Rustc Guide, I suppose</p>



<a name="151781848"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781848" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Santiago Pastorino <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781848">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:15)</a>:</h4>
<p>a list of people that can answer questions about some topics</p>



<a name="151781850"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781850" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> oli <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781850">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:15)</a>:</h4>
<p>Up to date solves itself by person Y getting asked about file X and noticing that they don't know anymore enough about it to be of help</p>



<a name="151781857"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781857" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Santiago Pastorino <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781857">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:15)</a>:</h4>
<p>from those questions we could document stuff</p>



<a name="151781859"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781859" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> davidtwco <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781859">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:15)</a>:</h4>
<p>Are doc comments included in the search on the documentation?</p>



<a name="151781863"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781863" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> davidtwco <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781863">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:15)</a>:</h4>
<p>It'd be valuable for just that reason.</p>



<a name="151781864"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781864" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781864">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:15)</a>:</h4>
<p>so I created this repository at some point</p>



<a name="151781875"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781875" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781875">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:15)</a>:</h4>
<p><a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/">https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/</a></p>



<a name="151781882"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781882" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781882">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:15)</a>:</h4>
<p>I haven't done much with it yet, but it seems like a place that such a thing could live</p>



<a name="151781926"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781926" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Santiago Pastorino <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781926">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:16)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think a very valuable thing also is that people figure out relevant questions and have some stuff organized in a document</p>



<a name="151781930"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781930" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781930">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:16)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'd like to start using it to coordinate ourselves better</p>



<a name="151781939"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781939" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Santiago Pastorino <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781939">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:16)</a>:</h4>
<p>as an informal way of documenting things and maybe that can be shaped later</p>



<a name="151781950"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781950" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Santiago Pastorino <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781950">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:16)</a>:</h4>
<p>I guess a lot of people repeatedly answer the same stuff over and over</p>



<a name="151781969"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781969" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Sunjay Varma <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781969">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:16)</a>:</h4>
<p>Completing more of the rustc guide would be helpful too. The last time I checked it still had blank sections</p>



<a name="151781986"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151781986" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> mw <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151781986">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:17)</a>:</h4>
<p>one practical problem I've run into is: I like the idea of adding documentation (including the rustc guide) but in practice other things always felt like they are more urgent</p>



<a name="151782002"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782002" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782002">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:17)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yes, it does, but I'm feeling like we need to change those priorities a bit</p>



<a name="151782006"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782006" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Sunjay Varma <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782006">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:17)</a>:</h4>
<p>Maybe there could be a Zulip channel per area of the compiler where people could hang out and answer questions? That way you wouldn't have to keep a list of people up to date, you could just have people in those groups</p>



<a name="151782067"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782067" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782067">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:18)</a>:</h4>
<p>I guess the first step is figuring out what those "parts" are</p>



<a name="151782070"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782070" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> davidtwco <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782070">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:18)</a>:</h4>
<p>One thing that I've thought might be a good idea is having a clear off-ramp process for working groups: as a working group starts to slow down (sort of like NLL at the moment, although there is still work for Polonius), try schedule a meeting with the active participants that would introduce them to the ongoing work/concepts involved in some other area where there is active work going on and that lets them just jump into that and hit the ground running.</p>



<a name="151782087"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782087" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> oli <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782087">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:18)</a>:</h4>
<p>idk, would area streams really help? We already have the general stream and ppl will actively help or ping whomever they think can contrib</p>



<a name="151782099"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782099" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782099">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:19)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yes, I like this idea, but it seems to require first that we have a clear idea of what is going on, so I've been focused on trying to bootstrap that process itself</p>



<a name="151782107"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782107" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782107">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:19)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>idk, would area streams really help? We already have the general stream and ppl will actively help or ping whomever they think can contrib</p>
</blockquote>
<p>yes, I'm not sure, though e.g. <a class="stream" data-stream-id="146212" href="/#narrow/stream/146212-t-compiler.2Fconst-eval">#t-compiler/const-eval</a> has been a big win</p>



<a name="151782111"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782111" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> davidtwco <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782111">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:19)</a>:</h4>
<p>Streams for a specific area would only make sense if there's a lot of traffic.</p>



<a name="151782127"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782127" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> mw <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782127">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:19)</a>:</h4>
<p>with zulip topics, do we need separate streams?</p>



<a name="151782180"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782180" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> davidtwco <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782180">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:20)</a>:</h4>
<p>If &gt;60% of T-compiler topics were discussing name resolution then maybe a <code>T-compiler/name-resolution</code> might be warranted, for example.</p>



<a name="151782185"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782185" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782185">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:20)</a>:</h4>
<p>so I created <a href="https://hackmd.io/ENwQ5UNqRXiAUwGoMcCapw" target="_blank" title="https://hackmd.io/ENwQ5UNqRXiAUwGoMcCapw">a HackMd document where we can maybe try to sketch out what we think the "areas" of the compiler are</a> -- probably post meeting I will go over the code and try to fill it out</p>



<a name="151782201"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782201" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782201">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:20)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>with zulip topics, do we need separate streams?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>it's a bit unclear; the advantage of streams of course is that it's easier to see at a glance if the unread message might be something you care about. You can also sort of "mute" at the level of streams.</p>



<a name="151782208"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782208" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782208">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:21)</a>:</h4>
<p>but I feel like creating streams is a <em>bit</em> of a step too far for this moment</p>



<a name="151782228"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782228" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782228">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:21)</a>:</h4>
<p>another thought, that feels related:</p>



<a name="151782245"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782245" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782245">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:21)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'd like to see us doing more comprehensive testing. For example, shooting for 100% branch coverage or something. I could imagine trying to break that down by area.</p>



<a name="151782256"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782256" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782256">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:21)</a>:</h4>
<p>This also creates an accessible task for getting into the code: can you create tests that hit those untested LOC?</p>



<a name="151782315"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782315" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Sunjay Varma <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782315">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:22)</a>:</h4>
<p>Maybe a specific stream just for asking questions about the compiler? Like it wasn't clear to me that general is for that. I think some people might think that compiler team streams are not for questions about the compiler, just for members to have meetings</p>



<a name="151782320"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782320" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782320">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:22)</a>:</h4>
<p>That said, I've never really used code coverage tools, and perhaps they are not that useful?</p>



<a name="151782332"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782332" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> qmx <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782332">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:22)</a>:</h4>
<p>heck just being able to write tests, the bar is really low atm</p>



<a name="151782343"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782343" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Sunjay Varma <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782343">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:22)</a>:</h4>
<p>Or at least some better advertising of "come ask questions here"</p>



<a name="151782349"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782349" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> qmx <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782349">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:22)</a>:</h4>
<p>/me thinks about trying to write tests for <code>compiletest</code></p>



<a name="151782350"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782350" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782350">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:22)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>Maybe a specific stream just for asking questions about the compiler? Like it wasn't clear to me that general is for that. I think some people might think that compiler team streams are not for questions about the compiler, just for members to have meetings</p>
</blockquote>
<p>maybe in part what we need is better (read: any) documentation on how we use zulip</p>



<a name="151782369"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782369" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782369">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>oh heck I forgot</p>



<a name="151782379"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782379" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782379">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>last time I did this thing where you could use the <span class="emoji emoji-1f446" title="point up">:point_up:</span> emoji to call attention to a comment that you want me to include in the final summary</p>



<a name="151782386"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782386" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782386">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm going to go back and add a few such emojis ;)</p>



<a name="151782469"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782469" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nagisa <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782469">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>It seems hard for people to ask mentorship for tasks that aren’t specifically mentioned E-mentor/E-easy</p>



<a name="151782514"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782514" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nagisa <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782514">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>(or those that don’t already have instructions written)</p>



<a name="151782515"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782515" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782515">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>hard in what sense?</p>



<a name="151782527"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782527" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782527">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>I don't disagree, just trying to drill in a bit</p>



<a name="151782534"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782534" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nagisa <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782534">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>whom to ask and where to ask <span class="emoji emoji-1f642" title="slight smile">:slight_smile:</span></p>



<a name="151782537"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782537" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782537">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>there's no clear venue, for example</p>



<a name="151782538"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782538" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782538">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>ok, yes</p>



<a name="151782591"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782591" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782591">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>in principle you can ping on issues but .. some people .. might not be so good at checking their github notifications <span class="emoji emoji-1f648" title="see no evil">:see_no_evil:</span></p>



<a name="151782596"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782596" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nagisa <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782596">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>E-mentor/E-easy usually have instructions as well as a blip that tells where and whom to contact for more info</p>



<a name="151782602"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782602" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Wesley Wiser <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782602">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:26)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>whom to ask and where to ask :)</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I've run into that personally. +1 from me</p>



<a name="151782610"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782610" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782610">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>so actually, speaking of zulip streams, I wonder if some kind of #t-compiler/beginners stream might be nice</p>



<a name="151782611"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782611" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nagisa <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782611">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:27)</a>:</h4>
<p>This is especially relevant now that we are split over 2/3 venues</p>



<a name="151782619"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782619" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> davidtwco <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782619">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:27)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think for some small-to-medium implementation work that normally one experienced person handles, it could be good to use that as an opportunity to pair up with someone that's got some intermediate experience in the compiler and work on that together. When <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="124288">@Oli</span> and <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120791">@RalfJ</span> (both of whom are of course very experienced) were working together on const-eval, I felt that things like that could be beneficial to contributors with some experience to get hands-on in new areas where most of the work is normally just bug-fixes.</p>



<a name="151782635"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782635" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782635">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:27)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yes, so, it seems like a perfect "WG"</p>



<a name="151782681"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782681" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782681">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>but I'm not sure that either <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="124288">@Oli</span> or <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120791">@RalfJ</span> is necessarily up to trying to do more organizational work <em>per se</em></p>



<a name="151782686"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782686" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> davidtwco <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782686">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>I was just using them as an example as it was observing that work that made me think of it.</p>



<a name="151782687"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782687" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782687">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>(I know both have many demands on their time, etc)</p>



<a name="151782693"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782693" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Ariel Ben-Yehuda <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782693">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:28)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>so actually, speaking of zulip streams, I wonder if some kind of #t-compiler/beginners stream might be nice</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I think a #t-compiler/help might be better. Even non-beginners sometimes need help in areas they are not experienced in.</p>



<a name="151782694"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782694" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782694">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yes, I'm just thinking out loud. It does feel like we should be able to call better attention to places where we have introductory work available</p>



<a name="151782708"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782708" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782708">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:29)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>think a #t-compiler/help might be better. Even non-beginners sometimes need help in areas they are not experienced in.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>agreed</p>



<a name="151782735"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782735" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782735">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>one other concept that I've been wondering about:</p>



<a name="151782795"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782795" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782795">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>I wonder if there is value in having a more refined concept of a "reviewer"? I guess normally that's sort of just a mentor.</p>



<a name="151782814"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782814" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782814">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>Mostly I'm thinking about whether there are times where people have an interest in an area but not the energy or time to be <em>actively</em> pursuing it, and I wonder if it's worth formalizing that,</p>



<a name="151782826"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782826" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> mw <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782826">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>in an ideal world, reviewer and mentor would be different people</p>



<a name="151782841"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782841" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782841">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:31)</a>:</h4>
<p>but now that I say it out loud it seems sort of irrelevant for this <em>particular</em> discussion. More germane perhaps to things like traits working group (where e.g. I might like to arrange to "review" what we've been doing with <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="126804">@Ariel Ben-Yehuda</span> regularly)</p>



<a name="151782844"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782844" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782844">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:31)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>in an ideal world, reviewer and mentor would be different people</p>
</blockquote>
<p>yes I wonder about that sometimes :)</p>



<a name="151782866"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782866" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Ariel Ben-Yehuda <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782866">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:31)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>I wonder if there is value in having a more refined concept of a "reviewer"</p>
</blockquote>
<p>In what sort of way?</p>



<a name="151782944"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782944" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> davidtwco <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782944">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>It would be nice for a sort of mentoring that targets contributors that are trying to branch out into new areas of the compiler - for example, I try to avoid taking E-mentor issues now - I've been contributing to the compiler for long enough (not <em>that</em> long and still inexperienced, but still) that I feel I should leave those to people who're just starting out - but that makes it a little difficult to find good issues in those other parts of the compiler.</p>



<a name="151782965"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782965" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782965">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>so ok to loop back a bit and try to summarize what I recall as the major points so far:</p>
<ul>
<li>it seems good to try and list out who is an expert on what. I imagine this being a kind of "introduction to the compiler team" page.</li>
<li>we might try to actively increase bus factor via fixing issues, writing tests, or writing docs</li>
<li>a dedicated t-compiler/help stream would be a good way to call attention and request mentoring</li>
<li>documentation on zulip seems like a win</li>
</ul>



<a name="151782971"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782971" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> davidtwco <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782971">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>It might be more appealing for some people to mentor from some experience level rather than absolute beginner in the compiler?</p>



<a name="151782980"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782980" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> davidtwco <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782980">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>(just brainstorming)</p>



<a name="151782981"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782981" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782981">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yes, interesting, and very true.</p>



<a name="151782992"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151782992" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151782992">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>This is sort of what I had hoped the "expert list" might lead to</p>



<a name="151783055"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783055" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783055">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>in particular, e.g., maybe we say "well maybe we can find some intermediate/challenging problems in the area of name resolution for davidtwco to tackle" and kill 2 birds with 1 stone or something. But maybe it's best to try and separate them.</p>



<a name="151783064"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783064" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783064">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>I like the idea of having distinct e-mentor levels</p>



<a name="151783087"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783087" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Ariel Ben-Yehuda <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783087">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm not sure, we've put E-mentor on some "intermediate" issues</p>



<a name="151783091"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783091" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783091">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>it seems like part of the problem is just "advertising" too, getting people with "here is work I would love to see done but don't have to do" connected to people who might do it?</p>



<a name="151783123"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783123" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783123">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:35)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>I'm not sure, we've put E-mentor on some "intermediate" issues</p>
</blockquote>
<p>yes, sometimes.</p>



<a name="151783125"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783125" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> QuietMisdreavus <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783125">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:35)</a>:</h4>
<p>maybe the idea of combining E-mentor with "higher difficulty" labels like E-medium/E-hard would convey this?</p>



<a name="151783138"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783138" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783138">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:35)</a>:</h4>
<p>makes sense</p>



<a name="151783147"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783147" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Santiago Pastorino <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783147">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:35)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>I like the idea of having distinct e-mentor levels</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I think it could be nice if new contributors, when they start to familiarize with some concepts can quickly start helping mentoring other people too</p>



<a name="151783189"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783189" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783189">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:36)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>It might be more appealing for some people to mentor from some experience level rather than absolute beginner in the compiler?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I'm trying to think: what is stopping this from happening. It doesn't feel like github issue labels are the full answer though =)</p>



<a name="151783208"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783208" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Ariel Ben-Yehuda <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783208">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:36)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think we have<br>
1) "small" issues (glorified typo fixes) so you can get to know how to work with the compiler.<br>
2) medium-size issues where there are mentor notes<br>
3) large "implement a feature, given some mentor notes" issues</p>



<a name="151783221"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783221" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Wesley Wiser <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783221">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:36)</a>:</h4>
<p>Part of it might be that it's hard to tell who wants to mentor and who wants to be mentored</p>



<a name="151783256"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783256" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> davidtwco <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783256">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:37)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>I'm trying to think: what is stopping this from happening. It doesn't feel like github issue labels are the full answer though =)</p>
</blockquote>
<p>If someone experienced is looking for someone to mentor who isn't just starting out, then there's no real "directory" of who those people are unless you happen to just recognize someone's name after them being in a working group or in Discord/Zulip for some time.</p>



<a name="151783265"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783265" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783265">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:37)</a>:</h4>
<p>yep</p>



<a name="151783266"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783266" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783266">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:37)</a>:</h4>
<p>so one thing we might also consider:</p>



<a name="151783277"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783277" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783277">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:37)</a>:</h4>
<p>creating a kind of list of "mid-level" compiler hackers?</p>



<a name="151783337"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783337" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> davidtwco <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783337">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>A sort of equivalent to the docs team's "documentation peers" and language team's "language shepards"?</p>



<a name="151783340"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783340" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Sunjay Varma <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783340">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>What defines a mid-level compiler hacker?</p>



<a name="151783343"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783343" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783343">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm fishing around for a good term for this. I want to say journeyman but I'm annoyed because it's gendered.</p>



<a name="151783350"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783350" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783350">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>I don't know exactly, that's a good question</p>



<a name="151783352"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783352" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> mw <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783352">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>the expert list could also include people who'd like to be experts in some area</p>



<a name="151783357"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783357" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783357">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:38)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>the expert list could also include people who'd like to be experts in some area</p>
</blockquote>
<p>ah, interesting</p>



<a name="151783401"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783401" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783401">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:39)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>What defines a mid-level compiler hacker?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I'm debating between it being 'opt in' or something that is given as 'recognition'. kind of like r+, though it feels more meaningful than r+</p>



<a name="151783403"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783403" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> mw <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783403">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>apprentices :)</p>



<a name="151783405"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783405" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783405">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>I've long wished for some intermediate steps along the way towards compiler membership</p>



<a name="151783412"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783412" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783412">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>but one thing that I've been missing is how to incorporate it into processes</p>



<a name="151783415"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783415" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783415">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:39)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>apprentices :)</p>
</blockquote>
<p>yep, that was my next suggestion...</p>



<a name="151783460"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783460" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> davidtwco <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783460">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:40)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>I'm debating between it being 'opt in' or something that is given as 'recognition'. kind of like r+, though it feels more meaningful than r+</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I suspect if it was opt-in then the list would get large and unwieldly quite quickly.</p>



<a name="151783476"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783476" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783476">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:40)</a>:</h4>
<p>yeah, I'd rather it be the sort of thing where: as a working group winds down, you look at the really active people, and you add them to this list</p>



<a name="151783481"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783481" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783481">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:40)</a>:</h4>
<p>and (ideally) we have some times that we revisit it</p>



<a name="151783487"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783487" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783487">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:40)</a>:</h4>
<p>e.g., one of the original hopes for this very steering meeting, as we get into our stride</p>



<a name="151783494"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783494" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783494">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:41)</a>:</h4>
<p>is that it would be a time to check on our goals and compare our progress</p>



<a name="151783505"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783505" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> davidtwco <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783505">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:41)</a>:</h4>
<p>Things like that where active contributors are recognized in little ways is hugely beneficial.</p>



<a name="151783506"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783506" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783506">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:41)</a>:</h4>
<p>it might also be a time for people to talk about e.g. "well I was thinking about doing X, is there someone who wants to work on it with me?"</p>



<a name="151783524"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783524" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783524">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:41)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>e.g., one of the original hopes for this very steering meeting, as we get into our stride</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I am imagining this being more true in 2019, particularly after the all hands</p>



<a name="151783575"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783575" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Ariel Ben-Yehuda <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783575">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>this was one of my goals with the working group "kanban board"</p>



<a name="151783594"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783594" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783594">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>( looking over the <a href="https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/apprentice" target="_blank" title="https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/apprentice">thesaurs entries for apprentice</a>, I see nothing better. =) )</p>



<a name="151783617"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783617" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> davidtwco <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783617">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:43)</a>:</h4>
<p>What I also don't want to do, in making these suggestions - all somewhat selfishly motivated as most of them I feel would help me in the position I'm in - is in any way put pressure on those in the compiler team (who are doing great work) to take on mentoring and those sorts of responsibilities if they don't want to.</p>



<a name="151783635"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783635" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783635">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:43)</a>:</h4>
<p>Heh =) I think it has to be recognized that being on the compiler team doesn't necessarily mean you <em>have</em> to do mentoring etc.</p>



<a name="151783680"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783680" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783680">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:44)</a>:</h4>
<p>but I do think that working with other people, if we can streamline the system, can be way more fun than working alone</p>



<a name="151783696"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783696" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783696">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:44)</a>:</h4>
<p>ok, well, check-in: it's been ~30 minutes (a bit more)</p>



<a name="151783701"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783701" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783701">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:44)</a>:</h4>
<p>we have 15 left</p>



<a name="151783710"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783710" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783710">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:44)</a>:</h4>
<p>do we want to turn to another topic?</p>



<a name="151783760"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783760" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783760">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>( I'm feeling reasonably good about what we've said so far, I'd be happy to keep going, but I think we also reached a reasonable point with a few actionable steps. )</p>



<a name="151783772"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783772" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> mw <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783772">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>15min is not enough for end-to-end query discussions, I think</p>



<a name="151783777"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783777" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783777">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>Perhaps 15 minutes is too short to reall. yes, that</p>



<a name="151783784"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783784" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> mw <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783784">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>(and I have to run after the mtg)</p>



<a name="151783798"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783798" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> oli <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783798">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>we should move the query stuff to some async thing I think</p>



<a name="151783845"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783845" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783845">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:46)</a>:</h4>
<p>so, there is a meta point</p>



<a name="151783851"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783851" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> mw <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783851">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:46)</a>:</h4>
<p>yup</p>



<a name="151783865"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783865" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783865">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:46)</a>:</h4>
<p>something like archtecting the query system feels like a place where we could do a bit more up-front design, or at least design <em>documentation</em></p>



<a name="151783873"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783873" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783873">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:46)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm not quite sure what form that should take but</p>



<a name="151783876"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783876" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783876">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:46)</a>:</h4>
<p>I've been hoping to leverage the rustc-guide</p>



<a name="151783882"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783882" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783882">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:46)</a>:</h4>
<p>e.g., create a PR that describes what you <em>plan</em> to do (written as if it is done, with a disclaimer)</p>



<a name="151783887"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783887" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> oli <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783887">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>/me wants more graphs, less text</p>



<a name="151783906"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783906" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783906">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:47)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>/me wants more graphs, less text</p>
</blockquote>
<p>say more?</p>



<a name="151783930"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783930" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> oli <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783930">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>I can understand systems faster if there's some form of graphical representation</p>



<a name="151783937"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783937" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nagisa <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783937">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>looking at graphs is faster than reading text</p>



<a name="151783941"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783941" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> oli <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783941">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>I have been using graphviz a lot for that</p>



<a name="151783947"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783947" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783947">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>I wouldn't make this a <em>pre-requisite</em> to opening a PR precisely, but I'm interested in seeing the docs get written before the PR <em>lands</em>, or as part of the means of how we discuss what to do</p>



<a name="151783949"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783949" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> oli <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783949">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>it doesn't need to be formal</p>



<a name="151783951"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783951" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> oli <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783951">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>and not complete</p>



<a name="151783972"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151783972" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Vadim Petrochenkov <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151783972">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:48)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>a bit more up-front design, or at least design documentation</p>
</blockquote>
<p>This is something <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/56732" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/56732">#56732</a> is certainly lacking.<br>
+2,996 −1,814 diff with no design overview, motivation, goals.</p>



<a name="151784000"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784000" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784000">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>yes, I see. I agree definitely and am curious if we can find nice ways to embed graphs etc</p>



<a name="151784002"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784002" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> oli <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784002">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>the text can be complete</p>



<a name="151784008"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784008" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> mw <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784008">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>would help to have a good go-to tool for that</p>



<a name="151784011"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784011" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nagisa <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784011">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>case in point… gimme a sec… <a href="http://openpowerfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/resources/leabi/content/dbdoclet.50655240___RefHeading___Toc377640582.html" target="_blank" title="http://openpowerfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/resources/leabi/content/dbdoclet.50655240___RefHeading___Toc377640582.html">stack layout graph for openpower ABI</a>.</p>



<a name="151784018"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784018" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> mw <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784018">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>my ascii art approach does not scale :)</p>



<a name="151784036"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784036" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784036">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:48)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>This is something <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/56732" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/56732">#56732</a> is certainly lacking.<br>
+2,996 −1,814 with no design overview, motivation, goals.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>definitely, though the problem is not unique to that PR</p>



<a name="151784072"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784072" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784072">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>so, to make the question a bit more pointed:</p>



<a name="151784076"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784076" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784076">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>should we try to do something like this for end-to-end queries?</p>



<a name="151784077"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784077" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> mw <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784077">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>a rustc-guide entry might be a good level of abstraction for describing a design</p>



<a name="151784079"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784079" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784079">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>prepare some kind of design document?</p>



<a name="151784085"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784085" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784085">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>as a rustc guide entry?</p>



<a name="151784090"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784090" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> mw <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784090">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>sgtm</p>



<a name="151784093"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784093" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784093">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>maybe it makes sense for someone to work with <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116466">@Zoxc</span> on this</p>



<a name="151784147"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784147" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Wesley Wiser <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784147">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:50)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>would help to have a good go-to tool for that</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I know nothing about the tool but lucidchart has a nice GitHub integration</p>



<a name="151784149"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784149" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784149">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>I could imagine e.g. <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116466">@Zoxc</span> preparing some kind of outline, and it getting fleshed out, I don't know, that's an interesting question.</p>



<a name="151784155"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784155" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Wesley Wiser <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784155">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:50)</a>:</h4>
<p><a href="https://blog.github.com/#lucidchart" target="_blank" title="https://blog.github.com/#lucidchart">https://blog.github.com/#lucidchart</a></p>



<a name="151784158"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784158" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> oli <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784158">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm using <a href="https://dreampuf.github.io/GraphvizOnline/" target="_blank" title="https://dreampuf.github.io/GraphvizOnline/">https://dreampuf.github.io/GraphvizOnline/</a> but that has zero integration</p>



<a name="151784160"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784160" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784160">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:50)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>I know nothing about the tool but lucidchart has a nice GitHub integration</p>
</blockquote>
<p>omg I can't believe we haven't mentioned <a href="https://crates.io/crates/tango" target="_blank" title="https://crates.io/crates/tango">https://crates.io/crates/tango</a> yet</p>



<a name="151784164"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784164" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784164">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>where is <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116083">@pnkfelix</span> when you need them!</p>



<a name="151784189"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784189" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784189">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:51)</a>:</h4>
<p>I am definitely interested in finding a slick charting/graph software to use with rustc-guide</p>



<a name="151784202"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784202" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nagisa <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784202">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:51)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p><a href="https://blog.github.com/#lucidchart" target="_blank" title="https://blog.github.com/#lucidchart">https://blog.github.com/#lucidchart</a></p>
</blockquote>
<p>not something you can embed into code though</p>



<a name="151784204"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784204" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> mw <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784204">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:51)</a>:</h4>
<p>hm, so I think a rustc-guide PR is good for describing a design</p>



<a name="151784209"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784209" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> mw <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784209">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:51)</a>:</h4>
<p>but not necessarily for coming up with it</p>



<a name="151784213"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784213" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> davidtwco <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784213">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:52)</a>:</h4>
<p>It'd be nice IMO if it wasn't based on some external service but a local tool that we can run.</p>



<a name="151784235"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784235" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784235">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:52)</a>:</h4>
<p>yep</p>



<a name="151784257"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784257" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784257">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:52)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>but not necessarily for coming up with it</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I agree it's probably not the <em>starting point</em> per se</p>



<a name="151784259"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784259" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784259">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:52)</a>:</h4>
<p>are you thinking e.g. internals thread?</p>



<a name="151784267"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784267" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nagisa <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784267">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:52)</a>:</h4>
<p>literate programming is great, but not for everyone</p>



<a name="151784268"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784268" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> mw <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784268">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:52)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>are you thinking e.g. internals thread?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>yes, that's what I wanted to suggest</p>



<a name="151784270"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784270" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> oli <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784270">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:52)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>It'd be nice IMO if it wasn't based on some external service but a local tool that we can run.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>graphviz is that. The link I shared is just one of the many online editors</p>



<a name="151784288"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784288" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784288">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:53)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>literate programming is great, but not for everyone</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I didn't mean to suggest that aspect of tango; it has some kind of ascii-art-to-chart stuff too I think. Anyway.</p>



<a name="151784304"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784304" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784304">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:53)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>yes, that's what I wanted to suggest</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I feel like the internals thread we did on the parallel query stuff was helpful</p>



<a name="151784309"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784309" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Esteban Küber <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784309">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:53)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>not something you can embed into code though</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Just having the path in the code to a png living in the same repo would be an improvement</p>



<a name="151784316"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784316" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784316">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:53)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>I feel like the internals thread we did on the parallel query stuff was helpful</p>
</blockquote>
<p>It would've been better still if we did a PR afterwards describing the final design in rustc-guide</p>



<a name="151784319"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784319" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> mw <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784319">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:53)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p>yes, that's what I wanted to suggest</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I feel like the internals thread we did on the parallel query stuff was helpful</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Yes, it wasn't perfect but definitely helpful.</p>



<a name="151784366"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784366" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> davidtwco <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784366">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:54)</a>:</h4>
<p>Would be nice if <code> ```graphviz </code> blocks got rendered in rustdoc output.</p>



<a name="151784372"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784372" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> mw <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784372">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:54)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> it's not too late for that :)</p>



<a name="151784377"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784377" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784377">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:54)</a>:</h4>
<p>indeed</p>



<a name="151784390"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784390" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784390">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:54)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>Would be nice if <code> ```graphviz </code> blocks got rendered in rustdoc output.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I wonder if we can extend mdbook to do that</p>



<a name="151784393"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784393" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784393">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:55)</a>:</h4>
<p>who maintains mdbook anyway</p>



<a name="151784406"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784406" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784406">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:55)</a>:</h4>
<p>I forget their name, have to look it up</p>



<a name="151784431"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784431" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> QuietMisdreavus <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784431">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:55)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>who maintains mdbook anyway</p>
</blockquote>
<p>in a sense, docs team, but i think one or two are the real frequent contributors</p>



<a name="151784441"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784441" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> QuietMisdreavus <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784441">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:55)</a>:</h4>
<p>(for example, i haven't touched it before)</p>



<a name="151784445"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784445" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> davidtwco <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784445">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:55)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think there should also be some effort to leave doc comments in the compiler too - I find I'm reading the compiler docs much more than the rustc guide just as a result of always having the compiler docs open.</p>



<a name="151784499"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784499" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> mw <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784499">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:56)</a>:</h4>
<p>are compiler docs hosted somewhere?</p>



<a name="151784501"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784501" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784501">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:56)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>it's not too late for that :)</p>
</blockquote>
<p>so, back to the topic of process, for major design things:</p>
<ul>
<li>internals thread or other means to come up with design</li>
<li>design proposal as preliminary rustc-guide chapter ?</li>
</ul>



<a name="151784505"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784505" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> QuietMisdreavus <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784505">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:56)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>are compiler docs hosted somewhere?</p>
</blockquote>
<p><a href="https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/nightly-rustc/rustc/" target="_blank" title="https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/nightly-rustc/rustc/">https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/nightly-rustc/rustc/</a></p>



<a name="151784508"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784508" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784508">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:56)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="124287">@mw</span> <a href="https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/nightly-rustc/rustc/" target="_blank" title="https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/nightly-rustc/rustc/">https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/nightly-rustc/rustc/</a></p>



<a name="151784515"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784515" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784515">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:56)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116107">@davidtwco</span> yes, definitely, I use that a lot and would like to see a more concerted effort</p>



<a name="151784520"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784520" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784520">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:56)</a>:</h4>
<p>at the same time, I feel like higher-level docs don't fit so well there</p>



<a name="151784525"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784525" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784525">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:56)</a>:</h4>
<p>it's tough to balance though sometimes what should go where :/</p>



<a name="151784538"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784538" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> davidtwco <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784538">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yeah, there's a certain kind of documentation that makes sense in a doc comment.</p>



<a name="151784542"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784542" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784542">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'd like to see links back and forth between them, as well</p>



<a name="151784543"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784543" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> QuietMisdreavus <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784543">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>that was why i mentioned <code>#[warn(missing_docs)]</code> earlier, lol</p>



<a name="151784551"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784551" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> mw <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784551">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>It would be great to add actual links to relevant rustc-guide sections to the rustc docs</p>



<a name="151784553"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784553" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784553">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>so I really do like the idea of making working groups around some of these things:</p>



<a name="151784557"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784557" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784557">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>e.g., a goal of getting 100% <code>missing_docs</code> coverage</p>



<a name="151784560"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784560" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784560">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>driven by somebody</p>



<a name="151784564"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784564" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Esteban Küber <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784564">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>Would it be ok to look at some structs in rustc that are a bit more esoteric without docs, filing tickets for them pinging the appropriate people based in git blame?</p>



<a name="151784572"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784572" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nagisa <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784572">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:57)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> I found it very easy to integrate high-level documentation into rustdoc output</p>



<a name="151784578"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784578" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nagisa <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784578">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:58)</a>:</h4>
<p>including stuff like changelogs etc</p>



<a name="151784631"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784631" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nagisa <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784631">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:58)</a>:</h4>
<p>basically I tend to do </p>
<div class="codehilite"><pre><span></span>/// high level documentation
mod readme {}
</pre></div>


<p>or whatever</p>



<a name="151784647"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784647" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784647">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:58)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>It would be great to add actual links to relevant rustc-guide sections to the rustc docs</p>
</blockquote>
<p>we do do this sometimes, the rustc-guide is hosted etc. We are also checking  that links in the rustc-guide (which go to the rustc rustdocs) don't go dead, or we had plans to do so, and reporting it on PRs when they get broken</p>



<a name="151784656"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784656" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Wesley Wiser <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784656">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:58)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>e.g., a goal of getting 100% <code>missing_docs</code> coverage</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Seems like this might be an "apprentice" level task: write the docs for a module; reading the code or pinging the appropriate people to learn how that module works.</p>



<a name="151784669"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784669" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784669">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:59)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>I found it very easy to integrate high-level documentation into rustdoc output</p>
</blockquote>
<p>this is an alternative -- I've found that less good overall to structured docs though. Just the table-of-contents alone on rustc-guide feels great</p>



<a name="151784684"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784684" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> davidtwco <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784684">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:59)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> I found it very easy to integrate high-level documentation into rustdoc output</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I've found this to be the case for smaller crates where the root of the crate is always an entrypoint. With the compiler docs being so large, I normally start somewhere in the middle of it all on some type, I very rarely find myself on the page for a module.</p>



<a name="151784688"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784688" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nagisa <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784688">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:59)</a>:</h4>
<p>We should make sure to cross-link documentation aggressively</p>



<a name="151784697"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784697" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784697">(Dec 14 2018 at 15:59)</a>:</h4>
<p>yes, and I really like the idea of having ensuring those links don't go dead automatically</p>



<a name="151784737"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784737" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nagisa <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784737">(Dec 14 2018 at 16:00)</a>:</h4>
<p>not only have a list of all documentation documents on the topic, but also <em>crosslink</em> from within the documentation of each other</p>



<a name="151784754"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784754" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784754">(Dec 14 2018 at 16:00)</a>:</h4>
<p>though I'm not sure if the process is right now -- in general I feel like our "follow through" on downstream breakage resulting from PRs is ungreat</p>



<a name="151784767"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784767" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784767">(Dec 14 2018 at 16:00)</a>:</h4>
<p>(hmm maybe we need some labels for that, so we can track it in the triage meeting? e.g., when a PR breaks rustfmt or rustc-guide or whatever)</p>



<a name="151784771"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784771" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> QuietMisdreavus <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784771">(Dec 14 2018 at 16:00)</a>:</h4>
<p>(with intra-doc links you may even be able to link to <code>[some_module::readme]</code> fairly easily, lol)</p>



<a name="151784774"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784774" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nagisa <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784774">(Dec 14 2018 at 16:00)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>though I'm not sure if the process is right now -- in general I feel like our "follow through" on downstream breakage resulting from PRs is ungreat</p>
</blockquote>
<p>should get some autolinking support working somehow</p>



<a name="151784790"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784790" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nagisa <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784790">(Dec 14 2018 at 16:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>writing down link urls manually is untenable</p>



<a name="151784800"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784800" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784800">(Dec 14 2018 at 16:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>hmm <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="133692">@QuietMisdreavus</span> I sense another feature request coming on :)</p>



<a name="151784806"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784806" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784806">(Dec 14 2018 at 16:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>although, I've not found it that bad to copy down rustdoc links</p>



<a name="151784811"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784811" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784811">(Dec 14 2018 at 16:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>ok, it's 11am</p>



<a name="151784816"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784816" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784816">(Dec 14 2018 at 16:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>I have to run and do a few other things (among them, more <span class="emoji emoji-2615" title="coffee">:coffee:</span>)</p>



<a name="151784856"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784856" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Sunjay Varma <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784856">(Dec 14 2018 at 16:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>If all the docs are in the code, some guidance about where to start reading the code and in what order is also a good idea. Rustc is big and intimidating. These tips could go in the rustc guide</p>



<a name="151784859"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784859" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784859">(Dec 14 2018 at 16:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>:zombie:</p>



<a name="151784860"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784860" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> QuietMisdreavus <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784860">(Dec 14 2018 at 16:02)</a>:</h4>
<p><em>inter</em>-doc links, then, to have a kind of url scheme to link to related docs? <span class="emoji emoji-1f914" title="thinking">:thinking:</span></p>



<a name="151784868"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784868" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784868">(Dec 14 2018 at 16:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>Any last thoughts before we call it?</p>



<a name="151784875"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784875" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> davidtwco <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784875">(Dec 14 2018 at 16:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>Thanks all, I enjoyed these discussions.</p>



<a name="151784883"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784883" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> mw <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784883">(Dec 14 2018 at 16:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>interesting meeting!</p>



<a name="151784896"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784896" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> mw <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784896">(Dec 14 2018 at 16:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think the steering/triage meeting split was a great idea!</p>



<a name="151784897"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784897" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Esteban Küber <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784897">(Dec 14 2018 at 16:03)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="emoji emoji-1f44b" title="wave">:wave:</span></p>



<a name="151784915"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784915" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784915">(Dec 14 2018 at 16:03)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'll come back in a bit and try to summarize meeting as I have been doing, posting the summary to <a href="https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/compiler-steering-meeting/8588" target="_blank" title="https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/compiler-steering-meeting/8588">the internals thread</a> and also adding to <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/">the compiler team repository</a>. </p>
<p>BTW, If there is any feedback on these steering meetings, how they could be more useful, etc, I'd love to hear it, as well as the compiler team in general!</p>



<a name="151784916"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784916" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Wesley Wiser <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784916">(Dec 14 2018 at 16:03)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="emoji emoji-1f44b" title="wave">:wave:</span></p>



<a name="151784942"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/151784942" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> QuietMisdreavus <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#151784942">(Dec 14 2018 at 16:03)</a>:</h4>
<p>i'm glad i was around for one of these, lol <span class="emoji emoji-1f44b" title="wave">:wave:</span></p>



<a name="152020506"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering%20meeting%202018-12-14/near/152020506" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/steering.20meeting.202018-12-14.html#152020506">(Dec 17 2018 at 11:31)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p>literate programming is great, but not for everyone</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I didn't mean to suggest that aspect of tango; it has some kind of ascii-art-to-chart stuff too I think. Anyway.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>That's this project: <a href="https://github.com/pnkfelix/mon-artist" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/pnkfelix/mon-artist">https://github.com/pnkfelix/mon-artist</a> which I have at times hooked into <code>tango</code>.</p>



<hr><p>Last updated: Aug 07 2021 at 22:04 UTC</p>
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